Noisebridge - User contributions [en]

Trip to Shooting Range

2009-11-05T09:48:59Z

Helyx: /* Interested Parties */

'''There is some interest in a field trip to a shooting range to shoot guns in a Safe and Orderly manner. If you're interested, list your name below, along with any time restrictions and whether you are able to drive a carpool. The nearest range to 83C is, to the best of my knowledge, Jackson Arms in SSF.

No previous knowledge or experience is required. If you always wanted to try shooting a gun, this is a good opportunity for that.

==Bay Area Ranges==
Jackson Arms is an indoor 25 yard range, about a 15 minute drive from 83c. They require that an experienced shooter be at each lane, but an experienced shooter can share their lane with two or three beginners, provided that the experienced shooter passes a safe handling test and signs a form taking responsibility for the actions of the beginners they're supervising. I've gone there with large groups before and they've been accommodating and friendly. They have fun stuff to rent, and I think it's a great place to learn.

My favorite range in the bay area is the Chabot Gun Club range in Chabot national rec area in the east bay. It's a gorgeous outdoor range in parkland, but a bit of a drive, and only open when weather permits. They don't have rentals, so we'd need to bring our own supplies. The longer ranges make rifle shooting a lot more interesting than it is at Jackson. The longer drive, occasional fogged-out days, and lack of rentals makes Jackson the easier option however.

There are a few other ranges in the Bay Area as well, but I think these two are the ones worth considering.
[[User:noahbalmer|Noah]]

== Date & Time ==

Business Hours:
Open 7 days a week
Closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas Day

Monday - Friday: 11:00am - 9:00pm
Saturday: 10:00am - 9:00pm
Sunday: 10:00am - 7:00pm
Hours are subject to change without notice.

== Interested Parties ==
[[User:rachel|Rachel]] (have access to shared cars so can drive one carful)

[[User:Mlp|Meredith]] (I own a handgun and can teach fundamentals)

Daniela - would prefer to not drive
[[Category:Events]]

Cristina - I am free during the week after 5:30; I do not drive nor have a gun but I am more than happy to use one. I call shotgun!

[[User:skyex|skye]] (i have shot previously but only with a rented handgun. more experience would be fantastic.)

[[User:Jtfoote|Jtfoote]] Been meaning to do this for YEARS!

[[User:Arcanology|Al]] - Can I bring my Taurus 9mm?

[[User:AlexPerez|Al]] - I will bring my Soviet-era [http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM44S.htm M44] unless otherwise directed :)

[[User:jstockford|jim]] - jackson arms does not require previous training. they have a policy not to rent guns to people who come in alone without a gun. solos with a gun or parties of two or more are okay. there's a reason. i have a car that can seat four (including me).

quinn - i'm interested, and have shot at jackson arm a bit as well, but i don't have my own gun. i have trained a n00b there.

[[User:Michiexile|Mikael]] - Interested, but never did anything ever. No car, no guns, no experience.

[[User:savaki|Matt]] - Uh huh uh huh uh huh. Count me in.

[[User:Jof|jof]] - Have only done prone target shooting with .22 rifles.

[[User:Kripto|Mark]] - I don't own any firearms, but I've shot many calibers of handguns. (At Jackson Arms) No Car, will need a ride.

Jeffey Malone - I've an interest and a car that seats 4 passengers.

[[User:Rigel|Rigel]] interest, have no car, have no gun, but have shot them a fair bit as a lad so im not a n00b. fridays and saturdays are bad for me, but sunday or during other times of the week are good for me.

[[User:noahbalmer|Noah]] - I own a rifle and a pistol, and can teach

[[User:Christie|Christie]] - Trying out a shotgun recently, I was reminded how much practice I could use. I've tried a variety of different handguns as well. I have the van of legend that allows for an unspecified number of people rolling around in the back.

[[User:AlSweigart|Al Sweigart]] - I'm interested.

David Stainton - I'm interested and I have two rifles.

Tracy Jacobs- count me in, I drive too much, don't shoot nearly enough, have truck seats only 2

[[User:Bifrost|EvilBifrost]] - I own a few paperweights.

[[User:Dichro|Mikolaj]] - I've been to Jackson Arms twice with friends, done the safety course each time, but haven't wound up shooting all that much either time.

Sai - Interested; only experience is a boy scout range once, several years ago.

Jesse Welz - I have lots of experience to offer and a big fun WII Russian gun to shoot.

[[User:Helyx|Helyx]] I'm definitely in on this!! I haven't shot in awhile, and have no equipment, but i have a car! There is also an outdoor range in Richmond as well, though I'm pretty sure they don't do rentals either.

Concepts

2009-10-30T04:53:24Z

Helyx: /* LemmingBots */

Please explore and add-to a list of project concepts.

When you add your concept give only a short description of your concept, then make another page to present further details, media, and discussion of the project. Make sure to sign your name or add contact info so interested parties can offer support!

==Transit status information==

I've written something that uses [http://www.bart.gov/schedules/developers/etas.aspx bart.gov schedules] together with Festival to give announcements about BART trains approaching 16th Street. I intend on setting this up with a cron job to run around the time of the scheduled last trains every night (and maybe the first train in the morning if we think people may frequently stay until around 4:00 a.m.!), using the music server once it's stable. To avoid annoying people this should probably not be configured to make regular announcements at other times. Two extensions to make this more useful: (1) if we can get or make a USB-to-buttons/switches or parallel-port-to-buttons/switches adapter, we can have a big button somewhere that causes an announcement to occur (for use when people are thinking of catching BART and want to know when it's coming). (2) If we can get a big scrolling LED sign with computer control, we can have it constantly display train status -- as well as Muni bus announcements with data from [http://www.nextbus.com/ NextBus], perhaps using a library to get it. [[User:Schoen|Schoen]] 23:30, 9 October 2008 (PDT)

==RepRap==

RepRaps are a kind of homemade 3D printers capable of self-replicating, as well as being used for rapid prototyping and manufacturing. There is interest in constructing a RepRap at NoiseBridge. See [[RepRap]].

==Ambient Activity Mutating Space==

Place properly signed microphones in part of the space. Pick up conversations, feed them to voice recognition software. Extract nouns and phrases from the results. Render the top results from searching these phrases on displays in the space, twitter them on the Noisebridge twitter stream, and do other fun things. Maybe also do gesture recognition, too. See [[Ambient Activity Mutating Space]].

== Pancakes ==

there's a saying to the effect that the first batch is always ruined. a similar saying says don't buy any software with a rev of 1.0. is there such a saying about wikis? should there be? what about refactoring this wiki so's to make it easier to navigate (e.g. don't have two separate "infrastructure" sections)? --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 16:38, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

This falls very much into the category of Just Do It. That said, it's a fairly big job that I personally have not found time to take on. If anyone wants to collaborate on wiki reorganization I'm up for that (I like Organized). [[User:Rachel|Rachel]] 16:49, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

see discussion page for collaboration. --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 21:59, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

==Hologlyphic Video Art Project==

Basic project proposal:

The concept is to hold monthly workshops centered around creating art with my existing 3D display, and also building a larger 3D display, of a much simpler design than the current system. Besides increasing size and adding color, the new system design will take into consideration performance and creative applications.

During these workshops, we will create 3D art and animations, along with music and sound. This will be recorded at during each workshop, for final editing into a larger piece.

I'm doing this because I love Holography and all related artforms, and wish to see the creative potential grow. Noisebridge is a hub of creative and technical activity, a perfect breeding ground for such work. I'm working on grant proposal, to be a collaboration project between myself and Noisebridge. It will provide funding for the workshops, cover any expenses for Noisebridge, materials to build the larger displays, a Hologlyphic video workspace for 3 months to edit the artwork, cover my basic living expenses during this 3 month period and finally an art show.

See [[Hologlyphic Video Art]].

UPDATE: Just held the first workshop on May 17, 2009. About 10 people showed up, saw the display, how it works. Next workshop will be very hands on.

'''Seeking funding to expand this 3D stereoscopic system-'''

Currently seeking funding to hold workshops at Noisebridge, which will pay for materials to construct several larger displays, and hold a collaborative art show.

--[[User:Wfunk|Wfunk]] 25 May 2009

== Electronics Essentials ==

seems likely that people working on electronic projects would find a variable power supply and a function generator handy along with some other basic test gear (e.g. pink noise generator, resistance bridge, LC measuring device...). many such things are available as kits. i've got one or two myself and would like to build them down there and leave them for people to use. what cautions wrt other peoples' careful use? signs or brief instruction sheets helpful? --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 16:38, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

anyone want to collaborate on building kits and devices? [[OtherElectronicProjects]] --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 16:38, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

I brought some random retro gear along those lines, they're on a shelf labeled as donated by Skory. If they look of use please take them and have your way with them. --[[User:elgreengeeto|elgreengeeto]]

I bought a bunch of cheap but universally useful components: about 1000 resistors, 300 capacitors, diodes, wire, etc. I'm taking suggestions for other cheap but handy electronics I aught buy in bulk. [[User:dstaff|dstaff]].

==[[Arcade]]==

[[User:Vniow|Ani]] is starting a project that would bring gaming to the space, specifically inside an old style arcade cabinet. It would be based off of a PC running game emulators and will also have a arcade style joystick and buttons. Interested? See the project page here: [[Arcade]] She's needing some help specifically with a computer and actually designing and building the cabinet itself.

==Python classes==

Proposed at [[Python classes]]. [[User:Schoen|Schoen]] 21:20, 26 October 2008 (PDT)

==Pimping up the lights==

I want to pimp up Noisebridge's lights with a digital web-controlled interface. (Don't worry, there will still be switches that just-work.) See [[Lighting]]. Once I have enough work done, I'll bring it up at a meeting. If anyone wants to help with construction or software, let me know. I think I have the electronics under control. -- [[user:Dstaff|Dstaff]]

how about LED lights on a 12VDC circuit? --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 08:55, 14 November 2008 (PST)

==PayPhone==

Every hackerspace needs a payphone, and we are no exception. Several of us have been working on making it a functional member of the community. Details can be found [[Payphone | here]].

==NoTouchScreen==
[[User:Mediapathic|Steen]] and Skory have been developing a gestural interface system using processing, IR leds, and chutzpah. Wiki page and documentation pending.

==Gastrohacking SOE==

We are enough mad food hackers that we should make sure that a ''SubOrganizational Entity'' with regular [[Gastrohacking|food hacking]] meet-ups, events, workshops, cook-offs, and participation in [http://blog.khymos.org/2007/05/02/tgrwt-1-roundup-coffee-chocolate-garlic/ TGRWT] challenges.
We would like to work our way through the recipes or ideas from the great scientific chefs: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferran_Adria Ferran Adria], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heston_Blumenthal Heston Blumenthal] et.c. Make things like: Blue cheese / chocolate souffle and lemon tempura with licorice. Build and use a [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/magazine/14CRYOVAC.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=3d5db17005368139&ex=1281672000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss sous vide bath] and a computer controlled automated bbq.

==Wiki Watch==

the wiki is getting wacky. over time it may get so crufty as to be unhelpful. this "concept" suggests some of us pay attention to our wiki to keep it useful, something like managing a garden:
* some items are old and no longer useful, like weeds, they should be removed. if an audit trail or history is needed, move old stuff to an antiquities section.
* there are redundancies which should be consolidated (move all the gardenias to the same bed).
* it might be nice to use the discussion (talk) pages more and the article pages less so the text on the article pages reflects concensus of the discussion (and reduces the amount of words the reader must slog through).
* wiki technologies offer some features that might be good to promote. an example is "categories": if you look at special pages, you'll see a categories page listed; click it and you'll see the categories, one of which is "projects". it might be nice that we're aware of the projects category and tag some articles as projects. the benefit is easier wiki navigation. the downside, of course, is that all humans, even enlightened intelligent and well-meaning humans, are at times douchebags and won't bother to read about how to do things in ways other than what the current feelings dictate.

if you have feelings about watching the wiki, add your voice, please. perhaps we can get up a wikiwatch group to encourage each other to manage the mess. --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 09:13, 14 November 2008 (PST)

==Getting and Giving Stuff==
if we get stuff, where to put it? there are the sharing and hacking shelves, probably incoming should go on one of those two sets.

it would be nice to have an outgoing shelf, a place to put stuff that we no longer want. maybe the very bottom shelf in the hacking set? other?

how about trips to take stuff to ACCRC? a trip to ACCRC could be just to take stuff, just to see the place, just to spend time working as volunteers, or some combo. --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 10:35, 17 November 2008 (PST)

==Natural language Interest==
With the success of Mandarin corner, people have expressed interest in covering additional natural languages. I've set up a page for people to sign up and state their level of competency in various [[natural languages]].

==DIY Bio @ Noisebridge==
Noisebridge as a jumping off point for project organization, in-silico development and limited safe labwork for hacking the genome, proteins, cells and beyond! In the works is a series of diy bio salon/lecture sessions. Please read the [[Noisebridge Lab Safety and Ethics Page]]
--[[User:h0mee|h0mee]]

==NB Cell Network==
Let's set up some internal GSM with open source hardware and software on one side and proprietary GSM hardware on the other. See [[NB Cell Network]].

==Passive Cooling==

Submersion cooling is an attempt to cool items/systems by submerging the object in a liquid which will radiate the heat away from the object. Start off with a basic computer submerged in mineral oil and take it from there. -- [[User:aeonsf|John Menerick]] --

==Autonomous Flying Platform==

Create a loosely coupled autonomous flying platform solution. The current best way to do this is with a G1 phone running android using GPS, internal compass, and accelerometers. We will start with a blimp. Once we have the blimp figured out, we will then attempt to control an rc helicopter. see [[Autonomous Flying Platform]].

==LemmingBots==

I'd like to find a few like minds to get a good sized number (maybe 10 to start) of cheap RC car chassis and hack the controls to be guided with a compass IC. Then with a RC controller likewise fitted with a compass IC, use the controller to control the whole group of vehicles. The compass guided controls would keep all the vehicles going in the same direction even when they start out facing different directions. I envision an army of LemmingBots descending on Dolores park and confusing hipsters. Also, if you have a better name, let me know.
--[[User:Helyx|Helyx]] 21:52, 29 October 2009 (PDT)

Concepts

2009-10-30T04:52:36Z

Helyx: Added a coneept project! (LemmingBots)

Please explore and add-to a list of project concepts.

When you add your concept give only a short description of your concept, then make another page to present further details, media, and discussion of the project. Make sure to sign your name or add contact info so interested parties can offer support!

==Transit status information==

I've written something that uses [http://www.bart.gov/schedules/developers/etas.aspx bart.gov schedules] together with Festival to give announcements about BART trains approaching 16th Street. I intend on setting this up with a cron job to run around the time of the scheduled last trains every night (and maybe the first train in the morning if we think people may frequently stay until around 4:00 a.m.!), using the music server once it's stable. To avoid annoying people this should probably not be configured to make regular announcements at other times. Two extensions to make this more useful: (1) if we can get or make a USB-to-buttons/switches or parallel-port-to-buttons/switches adapter, we can have a big button somewhere that causes an announcement to occur (for use when people are thinking of catching BART and want to know when it's coming). (2) If we can get a big scrolling LED sign with computer control, we can have it constantly display train status -- as well as Muni bus announcements with data from [http://www.nextbus.com/ NextBus], perhaps using a library to get it. [[User:Schoen|Schoen]] 23:30, 9 October 2008 (PDT)

==RepRap==

RepRaps are a kind of homemade 3D printers capable of self-replicating, as well as being used for rapid prototyping and manufacturing. There is interest in constructing a RepRap at NoiseBridge. See [[RepRap]].

==Ambient Activity Mutating Space==

Place properly signed microphones in part of the space. Pick up conversations, feed them to voice recognition software. Extract nouns and phrases from the results. Render the top results from searching these phrases on displays in the space, twitter them on the Noisebridge twitter stream, and do other fun things. Maybe also do gesture recognition, too. See [[Ambient Activity Mutating Space]].

== Pancakes ==

there's a saying to the effect that the first batch is always ruined. a similar saying says don't buy any software with a rev of 1.0. is there such a saying about wikis? should there be? what about refactoring this wiki so's to make it easier to navigate (e.g. don't have two separate "infrastructure" sections)? --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 16:38, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

This falls very much into the category of Just Do It. That said, it's a fairly big job that I personally have not found time to take on. If anyone wants to collaborate on wiki reorganization I'm up for that (I like Organized). [[User:Rachel|Rachel]] 16:49, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

see discussion page for collaboration. --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 21:59, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

==Hologlyphic Video Art Project==

Basic project proposal:

The concept is to hold monthly workshops centered around creating art with my existing 3D display, and also building a larger 3D display, of a much simpler design than the current system. Besides increasing size and adding color, the new system design will take into consideration performance and creative applications.

During these workshops, we will create 3D art and animations, along with music and sound. This will be recorded at during each workshop, for final editing into a larger piece.

I'm doing this because I love Holography and all related artforms, and wish to see the creative potential grow. Noisebridge is a hub of creative and technical activity, a perfect breeding ground for such work. I'm working on grant proposal, to be a collaboration project between myself and Noisebridge. It will provide funding for the workshops, cover any expenses for Noisebridge, materials to build the larger displays, a Hologlyphic video workspace for 3 months to edit the artwork, cover my basic living expenses during this 3 month period and finally an art show.

See [[Hologlyphic Video Art]].

UPDATE: Just held the first workshop on May 17, 2009. About 10 people showed up, saw the display, how it works. Next workshop will be very hands on.

'''Seeking funding to expand this 3D stereoscopic system-'''

Currently seeking funding to hold workshops at Noisebridge, which will pay for materials to construct several larger displays, and hold a collaborative art show.

--[[User:Wfunk|Wfunk]] 25 May 2009

== Electronics Essentials ==

seems likely that people working on electronic projects would find a variable power supply and a function generator handy along with some other basic test gear (e.g. pink noise generator, resistance bridge, LC measuring device...). many such things are available as kits. i've got one or two myself and would like to build them down there and leave them for people to use. what cautions wrt other peoples' careful use? signs or brief instruction sheets helpful? --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 16:38, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

anyone want to collaborate on building kits and devices? [[OtherElectronicProjects]] --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 16:38, 19 October 2008 (PDT)

I brought some random retro gear along those lines, they're on a shelf labeled as donated by Skory. If they look of use please take them and have your way with them. --[[User:elgreengeeto|elgreengeeto]]

I bought a bunch of cheap but universally useful components: about 1000 resistors, 300 capacitors, diodes, wire, etc. I'm taking suggestions for other cheap but handy electronics I aught buy in bulk. [[User:dstaff|dstaff]].

==[[Arcade]]==

[[User:Vniow|Ani]] is starting a project that would bring gaming to the space, specifically inside an old style arcade cabinet. It would be based off of a PC running game emulators and will also have a arcade style joystick and buttons. Interested? See the project page here: [[Arcade]] She's needing some help specifically with a computer and actually designing and building the cabinet itself.

==Python classes==

Proposed at [[Python classes]]. [[User:Schoen|Schoen]] 21:20, 26 October 2008 (PDT)

==Pimping up the lights==

I want to pimp up Noisebridge's lights with a digital web-controlled interface. (Don't worry, there will still be switches that just-work.) See [[Lighting]]. Once I have enough work done, I'll bring it up at a meeting. If anyone wants to help with construction or software, let me know. I think I have the electronics under control. -- [[user:Dstaff|Dstaff]]

how about LED lights on a 12VDC circuit? --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 08:55, 14 November 2008 (PST)

==PayPhone==

Every hackerspace needs a payphone, and we are no exception. Several of us have been working on making it a functional member of the community. Details can be found [[Payphone | here]].

==NoTouchScreen==
[[User:Mediapathic|Steen]] and Skory have been developing a gestural interface system using processing, IR leds, and chutzpah. Wiki page and documentation pending.

==Gastrohacking SOE==

We are enough mad food hackers that we should make sure that a ''SubOrganizational Entity'' with regular [[Gastrohacking|food hacking]] meet-ups, events, workshops, cook-offs, and participation in [http://blog.khymos.org/2007/05/02/tgrwt-1-roundup-coffee-chocolate-garlic/ TGRWT] challenges.
We would like to work our way through the recipes or ideas from the great scientific chefs: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferran_Adria Ferran Adria], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heston_Blumenthal Heston Blumenthal] et.c. Make things like: Blue cheese / chocolate souffle and lemon tempura with licorice. Build and use a [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/magazine/14CRYOVAC.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=3d5db17005368139&ex=1281672000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss sous vide bath] and a computer controlled automated bbq.

==Wiki Watch==

the wiki is getting wacky. over time it may get so crufty as to be unhelpful. this "concept" suggests some of us pay attention to our wiki to keep it useful, something like managing a garden:
* some items are old and no longer useful, like weeds, they should be removed. if an audit trail or history is needed, move old stuff to an antiquities section.
* there are redundancies which should be consolidated (move all the gardenias to the same bed).
* it might be nice to use the discussion (talk) pages more and the article pages less so the text on the article pages reflects concensus of the discussion (and reduces the amount of words the reader must slog through).
* wiki technologies offer some features that might be good to promote. an example is "categories": if you look at special pages, you'll see a categories page listed; click it and you'll see the categories, one of which is "projects". it might be nice that we're aware of the projects category and tag some articles as projects. the benefit is easier wiki navigation. the downside, of course, is that all humans, even enlightened intelligent and well-meaning humans, are at times douchebags and won't bother to read about how to do things in ways other than what the current feelings dictate.

if you have feelings about watching the wiki, add your voice, please. perhaps we can get up a wikiwatch group to encourage each other to manage the mess. --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 09:13, 14 November 2008 (PST)

==Getting and Giving Stuff==
if we get stuff, where to put it? there are the sharing and hacking shelves, probably incoming should go on one of those two sets.

it would be nice to have an outgoing shelf, a place to put stuff that we no longer want. maybe the very bottom shelf in the hacking set? other?

how about trips to take stuff to ACCRC? a trip to ACCRC could be just to take stuff, just to see the place, just to spend time working as volunteers, or some combo. --[[User:Jstockford|Jstockford]] 10:35, 17 November 2008 (PST)

==Natural language Interest==
With the success of Mandarin corner, people have expressed interest in covering additional natural languages. I've set up a page for people to sign up and state their level of competency in various [[natural languages]].

==DIY Bio @ Noisebridge==
Noisebridge as a jumping off point for project organization, in-silico development and limited safe labwork for hacking the genome, proteins, cells and beyond! In the works is a series of diy bio salon/lecture sessions. Please read the [[Noisebridge Lab Safety and Ethics Page]]
--[[User:h0mee|h0mee]]

==NB Cell Network==
Let's set up some internal GSM with open source hardware and software on one side and proprietary GSM hardware on the other. See [[NB Cell Network]].

==Passive Cooling==

Submersion cooling is an attempt to cool items/systems by submerging the object in a liquid which will radiate the heat away from the object. Start off with a basic computer submerged in mineral oil and take it from there. -- [[User:aeonsf|John Menerick]] --

==Autonomous Flying Platform==

Create a loosely coupled autonomous flying platform solution. The current best way to do this is with a G1 phone running android using GPS, internal compass, and accelerometers. We will start with a blimp. Once we have the blimp figured out, we will then attempt to control an rc helicopter. see [[Autonomous Flying Platform]].

==LemmingBots==

I'd like to find a few like minds to get a good sized number (maybe 10 to start) of cheap RC car chassis and hack the controls to be guided with a compass IC. Then with a RC controller likewise fitted with a compass IC, use the controller to control the whole group of vehicles. The compass guided controls would keep all the vehicles going in the same direction even when they are facing different directions. I envision an army of LemmingBots descending on Dolores park and confusing hipsters. Also, if you have a better name, let me know.
--[[User:Helyx|Helyx]] 21:52, 29 October 2009 (PDT)